The Language
The Language is a podcast dedicated to the reclamation of Anishinaabemowin. By second language learners, for second language learners.
The Language
Promotion is not proficiency
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If you're a language learner online, then you are no stranger to Word of the Day and its other iterations popping up in your feeds. Sharing tidbits of language online is great, but we also wonder, what are we actually accomplishing? What happens to language reclamation when it moves online and is shaped by algorithms, engagement, and shot form content? Are we learning language or just promoting it? To be clear, we see the value in language promotion - we, too, are a language promotion program. Join us in today's conversation, which may or may not just be our venting session recorded and posted online.
Do you remember our email address?
SPEAKER_01Uh hey no wait.
SPEAKER_02I think it is.
SPEAKER_01Hey Language Podcast. Yeah. Hey languagepodcast at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I for co-host you. Professional.
SPEAKER_01That's H E Y L A N just kidding. H as in Harold. E and I'll stop.
SPEAKER_03E as in eucalyptus.
SPEAKER_04We're two people that are trying to reclaim the Schnaubiman publicly, occasionally successfully, sometimes unsuccessfully. Mostly we're just hoping our elders don't disown us.
SPEAKER_01My name is Musquanquit, I'm Bear Clan, I'm from Was Oxing. Oh.
SPEAKER_04Right, I forgot to translate. My name's Jessica, and I'm Caribou Clan from Rama. That wasn't as awkward uh recording our intro that time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Good for us. We're we're getting better after four years.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. We we're real professional with putting out an episode once every other year.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_04So how are you? What's new?
SPEAKER_01Um bunky go. I'm um back home on West Oxing. Um here for the summer. Started my new job July 1st, working at the University of Manitoba. Big fancy professor. Um I'm not moving out there till the end of the year. They let me do remote for the first semester because I'm still working on my postdoc stuff that book project recordings for my Graham and Auntie. So yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of busy. Got two jobs technically, working on house stuff. Yeah, but it's good. I'm glad to be home. Home on the res for the summer. That's where I need to be. Kindush.
SPEAKER_04Congratulations.
SPEAKER_01Oh, Miguelch.
SPEAKER_04Did you go to NASA in Chile?
SPEAKER_01No. No.
SPEAKER_04Well, then you're you're not that fancy when I'm not going to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not that fancy idea. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I was jealous when I saw I had some FOMO because um me and my husband went to Argentina for our honeymoon like 10 years ago. And um we weren't there long enough because we were bougie and we like our red wine. And uh we also so we like wine from Argentina, but we didn't have time to go to Chile, and we always said we go back, and then I didn't I don't I'm not an academic, so I just all of a sudden I see everyone in Chile and I'm like, what's going on? Yeah, looked fun. Um what's new with me? Yeah, everything and nothing. Just busy, just busy being a mom and yeah, navigating life. I'm still contracting from home and uh still enjoying the change of pace, which is nice, but it's come with its challenges. I guess the biggest challenge was that we lost child care for my youngest. So I have two boys. Um Bidasia just turned seven yesterday. Totally. So I got a birthday hangover today because we did all the things yesterday. And then my youngest Bidwedamok is three, so he's still in daycare. So we lost uh child childcare for him back in November, December. And because like I don't have a quote unquote typical like nine to five jobs, I don't know if this was like a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm I'm the one that stayed home with him. And it's like a two-year wait for daycares, like childcare. Holy jeez. It's like it's a struggle out there. So I really um I really struggled too because I won't like I stopped working and stopped going to the gym and you know, like and just um became like a stay-at-home mom against my will and just tired myself out, like going on putting ourselves on wait lists and checking private daycares and home daycares, and like that's a lot for for like Pito Adamok was two at the time. Yeah, he just turned um three in April, so he was two at the time, and like taking them to a different house and like meeting new kids, meeting new people, being out of routine that was a big struggle. So, but um, so I'm like feel like I'm recovering from that whole situation and broke too, because like I just stopped working. So I think we finally found a home daycare for him in March or maybe April because we had March break and like everyone got sick, and so I think he started in April and I'm just starting to like recover from that. But but I don't know, but other than but it's nice at the same time to have flexibility to do that stuff and I'm able to to put my kids first because it's really hard to do working full time if you're working full time and have all these other responsibilities. So I think at the end of the day I made the right decision to have a like flexible comes with its challenges too, but yeah, but it's been nice to do that. I yeah. And it's funny because our topic today when we uh planned to record, we were gonna record an episode on like burnout, like I guess language learning burnout. So we had already recorded an episode on that, but it was really jumbled, I felt like, and we had asked uh listeners to mail their letters, so I feel like we didn't really do the topic just or I didn't probably because I was still within the throes of burnout, and so I didn't have any, I didn't have anything uplifting to contribute and then like all these awesome emails kept kept pouring in over time, and then it was like, okay, we just need to re-record this, and I feel like we would have an episode just reading the letters alone. So we got to our listeners who um email us with the and are are generous and brave to share their experiences. It was really nice for me. I was like, didn't feel so alone reading that, so we're gonna get to that eventually.
SPEAKER_01We're so we're supposed to record it today, but I'm still too burnt out to No, but it's really interesting to see how often it happens for people doing language work and like the common common struggles. So yeah, no, we'll get to it. And we we hear you people.
SPEAKER_00You people you burnout.
SPEAKER_04So it's nice to be back and um recording and our topic for today. You wanna call it? I'm out of ideas. Basically, we're gonna talk about word of the day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Word of the day. That's basically how we roll. We're like we pick a topic, not prepared at all. And hopefully something productive comes out of the discussion. But I it's it's not like we're not prepared at all because we think and talk about this stuff a lot. So this is kind of like a therapy session that people get to listen to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the topic is the word of the day, and all language people know that a big popular thing for language, especially online. Well, I guess only online, word of the day in the language is a popular thing. I used to do it. Uh I don't know if you ever saw those back in the oh geez, I shouldn't have even mentioned that because I think they're still out there somewhere.
SPEAKER_04Plug your YouTube channel.
SPEAKER_01No. No. Um, but yeah, people like to post a word of the day on the internet and teach you a word, and um, yeah, it's a fun little thing.
SPEAKER_04Or phrase of the week or all the different iterations. They're very popular. And you touched on a important distinction, actually. It's like, yeah, that is all online. Because basically everything is all online nowadays. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, and I feel like that's the even bigger thread underneath all of this is for better or worse. Um, I feel like the language reclamation movement or space is being influenced by the internet and the logarithms and stuff that is um, I don't know, digestible or engaging, quote unquote content online.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I think there's pros and cons. So, and word of the day is when that fits into that. Because yeah, you're right, most of it, most of the stuff that we see, even this podcast as you're listening right now, was all online.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I didn't really think of that as until I said it. It's like, yeah, word of the day is always online. There's no word of the day newsletter that you get in the mail. Um well, I guess I used to do it on Res 91 on the radio station. We uh it was on the radio. But same kind of deal.
SPEAKER_04Well, you can even listen to radio online too, so yeah, you can.
SPEAKER_01I used to. I haven't done it lately. One thing that's tough, especially about radio stations that have content in the language, is yeah, funding for them is inconsistent and it's hard to like, you know, give them all radio up in Chiging from the OCF. I don't even know if it's on the air right now, but when it is, they always have lots of cool stuff in the language, even when at some point they just had people hanging out chatting like you would on any regular radio station, but it was in the Schnaubbin one, so that was super cool.
SPEAKER_04So word of the day, it's like this, it's very popular and it's this phenomenon that's happening. And I think before we just start delving into the topic, I wanted to make a distinction or a disclaimer beforehand. I don't want to talk about people or criticize people for trying and sharing or want anyone to send any quote unquote hate or try to, oh, I think I know who they're talking about. Because I always want to be encouraging. So that's not the point of this is to point fingers and shame or critique or think we're better than anyone or or what have you. I think what I'm trying to get after with a topic like this is for us to be thoughtful and intentional with all of our language initiatives. It's like, what is the purpose here? And are we what's the goal and are we achieving that goal? Because sometimes things, and I think part of it too is like you said, funding is a big issue. A lot of um, there's not a lot of permanent, full-time, reliable funding out there. So most of the stuff that we do with language, like we have to really make it work with small funds and inconsistency, and we have to be really creative. And sometimes things get a little hodgepodge and ad hoc, because that's and that's good that we're still making it work with you know, there's not a lot of prestige and money in language. You have to be a little bit crazy and really love what you do. Right. So I don't know. I hope that was clear what I was trying to say. Because, like you said, you used to be a word of the day guy. Yeah. And so we totally understand, but we're also like, let's think about things, let's like think about the big picture because we're all working towards the same goal.
SPEAKER_01One thing I do know is that looking back on things I had done on Word of the Day, I I was making a lot of mistakes. I was very much a new learner and I was very excited to share things, and it wasn't always right. So yeah, be I don't want to say be critical, but okay, what I can say is anything from a second language learner, you know, we don't like that term. But for me, I'm not a first speaker of Nishabin one. So take anything I say with a grain of salt. Like I could be wrong, I could have made mistakes, and I would say exercise caution when listening to someone who's uh it's not their first language about the language.
SPEAKER_04So another big picture thing, I'm not even taught touching on word of the day yet per se, but I'm still thinking about the big the bigger picture and how this fits. I've come to realize, and that this is just a theory. I couldn't you could tell me if I'm way off base here, but from my experience, is when I'm working on language and trying to learn language and trying to share language, the reason I'm doing it is because I want to, and again, I guess like when we say fluent, that's a loaded term. But I want to be able to speak and understand the language every day. Like I want to be conversationally functional. I want to use the language in the home with my family. I don't want it to be just in ceremony or just whatever. Like I want to be able to be like, hey kids, get in the car, we're going to the park, all in a snob and win, you know, and do all those secret stuff too. Yeah, yeah. But the goal is everyday functionality in the language, and I want to be able to pass that on too. I want the language to thrive and be spoken, I guess, and a a living language, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so that's mostly what I'm trying to do. And I think I one of the reasons I feel like I get emotionally burnt out sometimes is I get a little bit cynical or jaded because sometimes I see people doing language stuff and sharing, and it just doesn't seem like it's accurate or it's gonna get anyone necessarily quote unquote speaking the language. And I'm always asking, why? You know, why are we is this achieving that goal? Right. Or is this the most bang for your buck? Is this the most uh efficient way to achieve that goal? Then I realized that I don't think everyone when they do language is after that goal, actually. Yeah. A lot of people are, but some people the goal is because when you're coming at it, I guess from my perspective, then it gets a little bit rigorous, and I want accuracy, and I want to do stuff that might not always be idealistic, like study verb paradigms. I'm gonna study how to conjugate the verb because that's gonna get me speaking the fastest, you know, and that kind of loses people. So I come off a little hardcore. I think we made that joke in the burnout episode. We'll have to redow it. I don't know if you remember that, but yeah, anyway. So it's it's not um the most inclusive, I guess. I'm not trying to be exclusive, but just that's not people's cup of tea. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. But then I realize not everyone is there, and some people the goal is to be inclusive, and everyone come in and everyone's included, and everyone's laughing and having fun, and we all go away and feel great. We learned maybe we learned some numbers, colors, and animals, and we played bingo and we all laughed. And uh, and that's nice, there's nothing wrong with that. That's where I've got started. Everyone's gotta start somewhere, and I think it's nice to want to include everyone and make everyone feel good and feel comfortable with language. But when you're like me, and I'm like, is this bingo gonna get me and my kids speaking the language? Like, are we gonna, you know, not really, so you know, I don't know. And then so I just like tire myself out because I'm always coming at it from my hardcore perspective. And you know, and then once I kind of realized that it just I it made things less heavy. I was like, okay, like this is this is a different goal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I never really thought of it like that. Those are definitely two different things learning language with the intent to actually speak it, and just doing language things for fun and feeling good about language, because yeah, I I've also been in those situations where it's like, okay, yeah, we'll learn animals, colors, and numbers, play bingo, that's all we did through elementary school, and I didn't learn how to lo use the language. It is a fun little thing to do, but it is not I don't know, I don't know what you would call it. It's engaging with the language to some degree, but it's not um it's like normalization or exposure, maybe and I guess there's yeah, promotion and there is value in that considering um the state states of our languages and how they were so um suppressed that you know back in the day you you weren't doing fun things with language. You didn't talk about the language, it was like, you know, something that you know parents hid or stuff like that. So yeah. So that's a good point. I've never really thought of it like that, but yeah, to actually learn to speak takes a lot of work. Got to engage with it, you're not gonna learn how to speak by learning a word of the day every day. Um yeah, it's gonna Oh, he just said that the episode's over.
SPEAKER_02And that was our word of the day.
SPEAKER_04That's what we've been trying to say this whole time.
SPEAKER_01Like it'll help, it's good for vocabulary, and I don't want to derail the conversation at this point, but I'm just thinking from myself, when I'm when I see word of the day online, I'm not actually really consuming it. I'm just like it's just being online and like in order to learn that word of the day, you've got to be intentional and take time, maybe write it down, create a sentence using that word of the day and talk to someone using it.
SPEAKER_04Use it in a sentence like 10 different ways, like all day long.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So I will admit myself, like I'm not learning word of the day. I'm just like, oh, that's a cool word. And if I already know it even better, I'm like, yeah, I know that word. Good for me. Check me out, I'm smart, and then scroll to the next thing.
SPEAKER_04So yeah. And that's I think that's what we're getting at when we're talking about word of the day. And I just went around it like in a bigger roundabout way, and you just came out and said it. So I feel like a lot of times, word of the day, like you said, like it's fast content like everything else online. Like, that's what the internet is like. We're not watching long-form content, like an hour-long YouTube videos anymore. We're watching like TikToks and reels and word of the day like memes and sharing them. And that's kind of like what the internet is nowadays, and I think word of the day fits into that perfectly. Like, it's very engaging, that's very uplifting. Like you see it and you feel proud, and oh, what a beautiful language, what a beautiful word. But are you can you use that word? Uh, have you learned it? And then you can turn around and you know, use it? Probably not.
SPEAKER_01You should start a conjugation of the day.
SPEAKER_04Wasn't that what you did on YouTube?
SPEAKER_01I did a little bit of that, yeah, with the the res 91 missionabwa stuff. Um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, like you said, it's not as engaging as a word of the day. Someone's gonna hear that. It's like transitive, what the hell is this? And then, yeah, nowadays.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, even that is kind of hard to to do, but at least if you're teaching like grammar patterns or conjugations or something, you're you're giving instead of giving someone a word, you're giving them like a tool, a framework for how the language works. But even that is, you know, it's kind of hard to no one gets anything the first time they they uh are told something or or read something. Yeah, so I feel like I don't want to say there's camp one and camp two. I don't know like how we would market this theory I have, this phenomenon that's going on. It's kind of like there's the I don't know, exposure, promotion? Is that what we're talking about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we can call it promotion, language promotion.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I think word of the day fits beautifully under language promotion. You feel good when you see it, but is it providing you acquisition, everyday functionality in the language? Probably not. And um yeah, I think when we're talking about the nitty-gritty of studying, going to immersion camps, learning verb conjugations, stuff where people are really trying to be able to speak and understand the language every day as a living. language. So I think if I was just at home studying verb conjugation charts and recorded that on a video and posted it online, that would not be engaging at all. You don't want to watch that.
SPEAKER_01You should try it. I see you. Go obin. She sees her. Yeah. I don't know. It could work. Some people might need that. Because it is hard to sit down with a chart in front of you and learn. Might be easier if someone's reading it to you. There you go.
SPEAKER_04Maybe I don't know. It still sounds like passive learning to me. Or maybe that's just how my brain works. I can watch someone do something, you know, like you're you're watching the Olympics and you're like, oh yeah, I could totally pole vault. That looks so just because I'm watching it every summer. And you give me a poll doesn't mean I'm just going to be able to pole vault it. I watched this a million times on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I'm a pole vaulter now.
SPEAKER_01It's a good point. It's good point.
SPEAKER_04You also talked about something provocative. You talked about the accuracy. You were talking about take everything with a grain of salt from a second language learner. Do you care to expand on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah well I've seen people share things online. Not necessarily word of the day um maybe sometimes in word of the day formats but like same online kind of format. Here's some bite-sized language stuff. And there's there's errors in it. I've seen that a couple times and I don't know I'm not I'm not the language police. I'm not your teacher I'm not gonna jump in there and say hey you got that conjugation wrong.
SPEAKER_04But you are a concerned citizen.
SPEAKER_01But I am a concerned citizen. I have heard of or seen people do that and be like hey this is not quite right here's what it should be and you know because it's the internet people get mad like yeah like yeah so yeah I don't know.
SPEAKER_04So I have seen some it's kind of awkward because you don't want to be that guy.
SPEAKER_01But it's like yeah I feel that way too sometimes and like you said we're yeah we want to support people depends on maybe because this is a language promotion space and not an actual language learning space that's why people don't take kindly to corrections. But in a language learning space I don't want to say you need to be corrected and we have teachers fluent speakers who will be like you know you say something then they'll show you how to say it you know the right way you made a mistake you accidentally conjugated the verb not the right not the right way and you need that like you need to learn if you're making mistakes in a language learning space. In a language promotion space maybe people don't want to hear that so yeah that's a good point.
SPEAKER_04We have this new framework or lens to analyze the language reclamation space now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah there we go to write a paper about it.
SPEAKER_04I think sometimes too it can be it can be disheartening if you're working really hard on the language and it's not really easy to consume or share in online content. So you don't uh get a lot of validation or or likes like because I know I have I have a lot of friends that work really hard on the language and they're doing it because they want to speak and understand and they don't they don't post that because they don't want the validation or want to be like that's not a priority. But also it's kind of hard to to show like I said in like little bite-sized content online and so it doesn't get a lot of recognition or validation and then when you're you know like toiling away and then it can be kind of hard to see something shared then it's like okay well that's either not accurate or you know we're like that's just a word I'm not trying to discourage anyone from sharing word of the days because like I said there's some there's value in that but I think my main critique is like can I read this on Facebook I give it a like and will I remember and be able to use it? Probably not so it's like well what is it doing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then further to my other point about how for better or worse everything is online I feel like our language learning space is influenced by like logarithms like a lot of there's a lot there's um you know people making good names for themselves careers off of being recognized online. It's not me because I actually don't work that much with the podcast but uh you know you could be uh influencer or uh language teacher online and it's hard to it's hard to vet someone you know when we're only going off of engagement how many followers how many likes I want a little bit of rigor and accuracy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and that I think that especially for Michael and indigenous folks generally um you see that elsewhere too you see people sharing stuff about culture might not be about language but like the feel good culture stuff is really popular online it's like oh yeah look how sacred and beautiful this culture is it gets a lot of clicks a lot of engagement uh people love it. So similarly with language things that the people like are going to be the ones that get promoted and people like um like feeling real sacred like look how sacred this language is it is a sacred language but it's also a functional everyday language. So verbs that are real sacred word of the day that's real sacred is going to get shared and it's gonna be more popular. It's gonna be liked by then your favorite verb conjugation that's what is the danger in that um I don't know there's I'm really happy that we kind of came up with this like initially framed this idea of language promotion. If you look at it from the lens of just language promotion then fine it's it's language promotion it's its own little thing. But yeah it's not language learning and you know what's the danger in that I uh I don't know I don't know it's the people love it the people love it means provocative yeah it's productive um and who am I to rain on their parade rain on their parade Mr Language police over here oh you're not doing it right is what you're supposed to do.
SPEAKER_04Well I think you care like I think you also want to see the language be not just uh promotional topics tokenized tokenized there we go sometimes it it does feel that way yeah yeah and I think that's I kind of wondered if that's what you're getting at when you were also talking about the cultural stuff where it's like or a little bit romanticized.
SPEAKER_01Yep definitely romanticized yeah and we're like playing into colonial stereotypes for better or worse yep yes I agree 100% and it's like I don't know it's kind of tough to see but at the same time a lot of us depending on where we're from our community are you know we have um a lot of us have an absence of culture in that sort of belonging we're kind of collectively reconnecting we're collectively collectively reconnecting because a lot of times our um our ancestors our parents or grandparents great grandparents didn't pass things on including the language because of the colonial reality of it and we you know we want something we feel like we are missing something we're missing something and so feel good things about romanticizations of our language and culture fill fill that hole fill that gap so I don't know it's uh can't really fault someone for that I do feel like it can be problematic yeah romanticizing our ourselves and like you said that's a colonial point of view but also understand where it comes from so it's complicated.
SPEAKER_04Yeah I think that's also what I was trying my disclaimer at the top of the show was like I'm not trying to knock any in particular person but let's talk about the bigger phenomenon. Yeah you know we're all part of it and participate in it in one way or another. Yeah and I used to like I look at some of the stuff that I would write or you know stuff that I saw on Facebook and I look back and I'm like this is wrong this is wrong you know or the word is taken out of the out of the wrong context like you gotta be careful. I'll give you an example like as a learner um you might know the word minique to mean he or she drinks or is drinking it could be anything could be water could be you know and then you you might learn you can add win to the end of something right and now it's kind of like a noun or a like a concept or whatever like Anishna Bama he or she speaks a language and then anishna bam win the language so I I seen someone they took minique and added win minique win for a beverage and it's like yeah that makes sense to me and then again and this depends on your community and your dialect but as a a specific speaker from somewhere was like I understand that as an alcoholic drink you know like those are drinks you know and the person who shared it was like oh yeah I mean you know this herbal tea minquewenque so you gotta be careful. Yeah context is really hard to grasp for not just second language learners I think sometimes even for fluent speakers you know not translating is really tough business. If you translate literally you're gonna lose a lot of the culture and the underlying context that comes with it that's hard to explain. And I've seen Manian go through that with her online her Nishnabin one online dictionary where it's like oh there's not just one word like how would I write this description because this is you know this is kind of implied that you need an instrument to do this but then so I've written down stuff that maybe wasn't necessarily quote unquote wrong but just oh this was in the wrong context or I took one word and think I can apply to everything else. And there's nothing wrong with making mistakes those are your greatest learning opportunities but you know like on the other side like we want I think the language has the right to be accurate and have a certain integrity with it because when you're a beginner learning a word like you don't you can't you don't know like you just take everything as yeah fact.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and the language works so much differently from English well it's a completely different language to begin with but also it works so much differently and even when we understand the basics of how it works and the basics of the grammar it's really difficult to speak the language like a like a fluent first language speaker just because of how it works doesn't seem to it won't really seem to make sense to us. Like okay like I understand how to say what I want to say but it's not exactly quite the way a speaker would say it. So oh kind of a side note one of our top top fans uh top listeners Nishnabimunbenwodod he was he was asking a while back about like uh he's like hey explain some linguistic terms on the podcast and you mentioned um that win putting win on something that's like a nominalizer so it makes something into a noun and he was asking about you know what about nominal what does nominal mean it basically means like having to do with a noun and that's interesting because is a verb you throw the win on there it makes it into a noun so it's kind of a nominal there's also things like a conditional ch initial change can do that like Nishnabem jig those who speak the language that kind of turns it into a noun but it's not really a noun it's still a verb so I just wanted to throw that in there shout out to to Bamwood oh you squeezed your linguistic lesson in there is that covertly yeah when for the listener we were texting about what we're gonna talk about today and I was like well I could always talk about linguistics then I just babble on and then babble on what did you say you made some comment you made some comment about um oh that's complicated I'm gonna have to check my notes because I feel like I've done that before and that's who I was quoting I have to look through my notes. I have to look through my notes because there's no simple answer for sure. And if you ask a linguist you're gonna get a way too long of a an answer. And it won't even be an answer. It'll just be like this is how complicated that question is good luck so yes we as learners can apply some of these things we learn like when put a win on a verb and it makes it kind of like a noun like that but yeah like you said it might not it might not be the way a speaker would use it or it might have different connotations in in other contexts so I don't know just rambling.
SPEAKER_04Yeah that's like in English like yeah the drink is a like a beverage but if I say like we went for drinks you're probably not like oh she went for grape juice or apple juice she got some chocolate milk one of my office mates when I was in grad school at least for my MA was a second language speaker of English so that was super fun.
SPEAKER_01She'd always be like we'd just be chatting and you'd say something and she'd be like why'd you say it like that? I'm like what why did I say it like that's crazy.
SPEAKER_04English is wild it's sacred yeah that reminded me of a a friend of mine that I went to high school with his wife he was learning her her language from Nepal and she would she said this was like years ago last time I saw them but he's like trying to learn the language trying to learn the language and then you know come home and only s only speak to me in the language and then she would come home from a whole day of work and he'd be like why is this say that again why is it and she would be like oh my God That's funny when I was in school for linguistics our field methods course at least one of them I took we studied Nepali.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if that's the language they speak because there's a lot of languages in Nepal. It was fun working with the speaker um she was really cool she was like she was younger so it was easy to just like chill connect with her but you'd I would ask her things like you'd have one-on-one sessions investigating whatever thing you're trying to figure out in the language and yeah there would be some things where she's just like I'd be like why did you s use this word here? What does it mean? She's like it doesn't mean anything. It's like okay what if I don't use it she's like it doesn't make sense if you don't have it. I was like so what does it mean? And she's like it just makes the sentence it just makes it be what it is and I'm like what the hell? Because it's like I don't know it's a linguistic thing that doesn't exist in English so I had no point of reference as to why there would be this thing there. But yeah even for her as a highly proficient speaker of her very own language she was like yeah I don't know I don't know what that is you just have to do it. I can't explain it.
SPEAKER_04Is it like for relax because I only know two languages well one and a half languages one and a quarter languages one and a fraction of another language um wouldn't it be you know like asking a speaker like what does suh mean you know why did you or what does me mean? Why'd you use it there?
SPEAKER_01What does me mean?
SPEAKER_04Yeah and it doesn't really mean any one thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah at least a couple hundred things and counting it's a feeling it's a vibe me is a vibe for sure me is a vibe I bet if we had merch I would put that on our merch. If Wuwani Gabo wrote what was this paper called All About Me because he wrote about me if in the modern context it would be me is a vibe you're using you're using uh I don't know modern puns.
SPEAKER_04Yeah give him to update it me is a vibe yeah update it in Gen Z language gotta engage the young folks in the language so no caps whatever I don't know what else my son uses that language he's like oh that guy's sus I'm like what does that mean? I know what it means what does he know? He doesn't know what it means. Frickin' youths anyway oh so sorry so that was M I I we're not saying M E if anyone is listening. Back on topic here should we just go all in and talk about word breakdowns? Yeah gonna have to it's uh or do I just edit this part out we'll decide later we'll see how it uh as you're work as you're editing it see what the vibe is say I always wanted to get Zawagijoginu Monty Migaki he's someone that a lot of you probably know he's a language learner teacher I always wanted to just get him on the podcast to talk about that so so I don't have to but here we are if you guys are listening to us now it means we didn't delete it and if you don't hear that then it means Monty will be on a future podcast um no but I think it I think it ties in in um what you're talking about earlier with you know like it's hard to vet a lot of things especially online Nishnabenwin and learning Nishnabenwin it's not standardized it's like the wild west out here everyone spells things differently and there's no you know like I remember when I went to Paris years ago they have um oh my god what are they called you don't they have a like a governing body to regulate French is that what you're talking about yeah or are you talking about the Eiffel Tower? No I'm not talking about the governing body to it's like to standardize French are they called like the invincibles or the what do you call it when you don't you never die the in immortal I think they're called the immortals language I'm gonna google it now.
SPEAKER_01I will say it doesn't work I don't know if that's what you were getting at.
SPEAKER_04Yeah that yeah that's true too the immortals refer to the 40 lifelong members of the Academie Francais an official council established in 1635 by Cardinal Richelot to standardize purify and maintain the rules of the French language and I'm pretty sure they're still so they're called the Academie Francaise and they're still around and they get around in standardized French and I think like part of it too is it's easier for them to just say le weekend instead of come up with like a French word for it. And so they're like no we will not acknowledge that. So I think they're trying to protect their language as well from stuff like that. Anyway so we don't have one of those with Nishnave and so it's hard to like vet things and so Facebook is rampant with all kinds of language promotion as we're we're gonna trademark that now um language promotion and some of it is really good and some of it is is not really good. Like I'm gonna I guess I'm gonna die on this hill unless I delete it and you guys can't hear that hear this part but I've been blocked and deleted by um certain speakers and teachers for saying that kinomage to teach does not come from a kinomage when people say it's like teaching from the land or I made a status about it. And I had the like the research the evidence that it you know you just have to go to Minnesota where they still speak an older variation of the language with um where they don't use vowel syncope and it's geknoamage. So there's no and then you can even look in the the Manitoulin dictionaries and they used to say that too like it was never a kinomaga. So that's one example like I hear that getting passed around and shared a lot and it's a beautiful concept yeah it's like teaching it comes from the land and so people are starting to say a knomaga and I mean really everything comes from the land so I don't yeah yeah. So I shared that and uh yeah I've I've pissed some people off yeah with that and you know but then I'm like why do I care who is this hurting if someone thinks that it's like it's not accurate if we're gonna learn language and I don't even know us thinking about that. How is that getting us speaking and understanding the language and passing it on. Like I don't know what that is doing where we're taking words and breaking them down into English into the parts like it's cool especially if it's not accurate. And there's actually while we're on the topic I want I want to shout out Rochelle and Danae because they started a new podcast. I think it's called Anishna Bamble and Word Parts and they have a couple a lot of episodes actually probably more We do. They're interviewing Alan Corbier. They have a couple series coming out. I only heard the first part, but it's really good. Anyway, they're sharing accurate stuff. Like they're using like dictionaries and stuff. So it's not like all of the word parts are it. So they're one example of like, yeah, they're sharing stuff that's accurate. Then, you know, I see on Facebook a kinoma, yeah, and it comes from the earth, and it's like, I don't know where we came. Someone came up with that idea, and it sounds real beautiful. We're really romanticizing and tokenizing the language, and like, oh, I feel so good, and I'm gonna share it. And it's like, I don't know what that achieved. Like, I really don't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you said like, oh, what's the harm in that? What's the harm in that? Why would I get upset about someone about this um this phenomenon? And yeah, I see what you mean. Like, what's what's the harm? Someone's sharing these sorts of things that might not be accurate. But then I think, you know, it is, you know, we're running the danger of romanticizing our language, and then a learner or a potential learner will put it up on a pedestal and just be like, look at this beautiful, amazing language. And if if they then run into a situation where someone might say, where you might say, hey, guess what? It's giknomage, not knomage, they might feel hurt, and then like, you know, then they won't wanna won't want to engage with the language anymore. So yeah, I don't know. And I don't know about giknomage anyway. I I would imagine that that initial part, the gick, uh, maybe Rochelle and Dene talk about on the podcast, but I'm I I'm guessing it has to do with like kickandum or like knowing. So you can like sorry, I'm just rambling here.
SPEAKER_04You're contributing to the book. No, you don't know.
SPEAKER_01Um no, no. Uh what is my point here? Yeah, the language does break down into these different parts that have different meaning, and it's really cool. It is, yeah, it's a really cool aspect of the language. So, yes, I'm not saying don't break down the language, but make sure it's accurate. Make sure it's accurate, and it's really helpful to understand that when you do get to know that, like, I didn't even understand that that was how the language worked until a few years into my learning, and it's just like, oh yes, there are these common word parts in these different verbs that have like the same meaning. It's like, oh my god, I didn't even realize that because at that time I was still kind of trying to learn uh Nishnabemun from a word of the day perspective. It's like, okay, I gotta learn this word and that word and that word and that word, not even knowing that nishnabemun works a lot differently from English. And if you understand these word parts, um it's gonna be really I don't know, really helpful to your learning.
SPEAKER_04So do you think that you do you wish that you would have learned word breakdowns as opposed to word of the day?
SPEAKER_01Or if I had just known about it initially, and that's why it's cool that the girls have that podcast, because you know, a new learner might if that's the first exposure to um to language, they're much further ahead in their language learning journey than I was that point in mine.
SPEAKER_00So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um But it's kind of hard when you like, you know, then you go on Facebook and then you see stuff that's all some other word breakdowns that are like, whoa. Like and you don't know which like which is which is accurate and um which is not. It's hard to tell when you're first starting out. Um I I like if you listen to Nishnave when word parts, they say at the beginning, they're like, We're learners, we might make mistakes, could check with the dictionary, check with the speaker in your community. You want to trust people that are able to, you know, be up front. And not like experts. I'm an expert.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know everything. Yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. And I don't know if people online who are in the language promotion business are accountable, being accountable to to the learner, to or to the listener. Yeah. Um I thought at a point, but it's gone.
SPEAKER_04Okay, cool. That's fine. Let's try a new avenue. Because I I want to um our both of our eighty HDs are combining. They're working together. Instead of eighty, we have 160 HDs.
SPEAKER_01That was clever.
SPEAKER_04Um that's what that episode will be called. 160 HDs.
SPEAKER_01No. That's a good that's clickbait. That's good. What the hell does this mean? And they'll have to listen to an hour of it before they find out.
SPEAKER_04And it wasn't even that good of a joke. Anyway, sorry. I bef because um I'm glad you forgot your train of thought because I want to remember a point before I forget it. When you were talking about the romanticization. Yeah, we talked a lot about this today, and it all goes, I think it all goes back to what's going to get the most engagement online, what's gonna fit really neat neatly into this real or meme or whatever, or status. And some of that stuff is a little bit tokenizing. It's like romanticizing the language or the culture. And I don't know the I'm just thinking out loud here with you. What's my beef with that? Why does that kind of bug us?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you've made a good point because it's important to you. The language is very important to you, and it might feel like I don't know, might feel like someone who's doing that sort of thing online isn't treating it with the respect that it deserves, which is kind of ironic considering they're trying to make it out to be this big romantic thing, which my I'm 100% guilty of. I did that. In my words of the day, I'd be like, here's a word, look how sacred it is. So, you know, maybe it's part of language learning. Maybe people who are just sharing romanticizations of our language, yeah, aren't um aren't gonna get into the language learning space, just the language promotion space. Okay. And yeah, and it's all online.
SPEAKER_04I think if we're like tokenizing, stereotyping, romanticizing language andor culture, then we're missing an opportunity to learn the nitty-gritty of it. And I feel like that should be the goal. Like, we I don't want to be perpetuating stereotypes about my people, our language, our culture. Um, you know, I said at the top of this podcast, this podcast is about the reclamation of Nishnave when I don't know, does that make sense? Like if we're if we're only sticking on that surface level and like, wow, it's so beautiful, it's so sacred, like reshare, and that's it. Like, I want a little bit, I want a little bit more. Like I want to, I don't know, speak the language.
SPEAKER_01And I wonder, this is slightly off topic, but I wonder how this is playing out in other language communities. Um probably the same. Because of yeah, a lot of our languages have these sorts of features that they are, you know, can be break broken down into all these parts. And so I wonder, yeah, for other languages. So for you listeners out there, if you're you know part of a different language community, um, what's your experience with it? How um how's that going with your with your language? But yeah, like you said, it's probably probably the same thing. Probably the same thing going on.
SPEAKER_04Do you remember our email address?
SPEAKER_01Uh hey no wait. I think it is Hey Language Podcast. Yeah, hey languagepodcast at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I for co-host you. Professional.
SPEAKER_01That's H E Y L A N. Just kidding. H as in Herald Ellstop.
SPEAKER_03E as in eucalyptus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and then I think it kind of ties back into what I was talking about earlier about where I don't want to perpetuate uh colonial stereotypes about ourselves because I think and what I'm saying by colonial, this is what I think, and you anything that we're seeing, you guys don't have to uh agree. Like these are just us thinking out loud. This is just our therapy session that we've recorded.
SPEAKER_01The views and opinions expressed on the language podcast are blah blah blah. No, you're the one who swore. You swore. I haven't I haven't sworn this whole time. Holy gee. At least I don't think so.
SPEAKER_04Um I'm allowed to for f say. I'm the one that's bleeping them all the f you're the one that's gotta go through it. F words. And so anyway, so I think I think colonialism wants indigenous people to disappear and be of the past, you know, because colonialism is asking for land and resources, privilege. And if indigenous peoples are on the land, we're still that reminder, and we're always gonna be in the way. So we need to be eradicated by different means. And one of them is, you know, like the disappearing indigenous stereotype, right? And that's why people say like mask and mascots are important because it's kind of tokenizing us and putting us in the past, and it's like, hey, we're still here, we don't look like that. We're not like Chief Wah who's running around. And then it plays into our language learning spaces too, when we were like, oh, it's the old way, you know, we gotta bring back the old language and like the most purest sacred language, and that's slang and stuff. Then it's like language is all for language and culture to thrive and live, they evolve and change with the times. Our ancestors evolved and changed with the times too, and it didn't mean they weren't indigenous anymore. So it's kind of a colonial mindset. So when I'm things get tokenized or stereotypical or romanticized, I think that's what's underneath that's like bothering me.
SPEAKER_01Yes, another aspect of the I guess you would call it the colonial gaze, is that they want us to be romanticized and tokenized because that sanitizes the actual history of the pain and suffering we still are carrying and are still being affected by. If you can look at Indians and say, oh, look at this, they're so beautiful and sacred. Like, look at the noble savage. Um the noble savage. Look how you know it's so amazing that they're still here, this is so good, that completely sidestepped the fact that, yeah, I don't know, I think it kind of appeases white guilt. It it appeases it appeases the settlers' white guilt when it's like, look, no, Indians are fine, look how beautiful their culture is, this is great. It's not, you know, you mentioned something about the nitty-gritty, maybe it was in a different context, but um yeah, things aren't all so flowers and sunshine and eagles crying and soaring in the air.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so we're the colonial gaze is bad. And when we romanticize the language in these words, am I am I reaching or does that does it connect somehow? Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I feel like it might influence why these things are so popular, because it's not just native folks liking um liking these romanticized things online. It's probably mostly settler folks, actually.
SPEAKER_04Um so I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It influences it influences the popularity for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think you know, for me, it goes back to like we're romanticizing, oh so sacred, so flowery, so beautiful. And like our language is sacred and flowery and beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is, but it's also not.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but we also need to speak it. We also need to go, you know, like I have a three-year-old. I I still need my three-year-old to say, Mom, wipe my butt, you know. I'm like, oh yes, let's say it sacredly. What's the teaching behind them? The sacred toy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my nephew's wob, Wab and Sarah's kids. They um we were hanging out down here a couple weeks ago, and the topic of Mo and Meazy came up. They were like, I was like, hey, actually, this this is a verb and that's a noun, and this is how you like it turned into a good language lesson because it doesn't work the same as English. So yeah, you need to know how to say those things. Um anyways, yeah. Side note, continue.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I think it's like I'm trying to be just a living, breathing Nishnave in in a modern society. I've watched that show, by the way. And I think the flowery, romanticized stuff doesn't really help me achieve that in a meaningful way. If I'm just um, you know, like it's nice, like promotion, yay, awareness. There's definitely a purpose for that. But I think I think also too, you know, when we talk I talk about being rigorous, wanting results, you know, learning how to conjugate verbs, which isn't very fun. Like we have to be real about where our language is at right now. And I probably say this every episode our speakers are leaving us, like they're aging. We don't have a lot of time to work with them. So we can do the flowery stuff later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like that's that's always at the back of my mind is that the sense of urgency. Like I can learn miniqua, and I can put a nominalizer, whatever your fancy linguistic word at the end and and say minquai win, but I want a speaker to correct me and be like, actually, like maybe don't use that word with your kids because like you're not giving because it's implying usually, right? Like drinks or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um losing the point again. Um words smart. Yeah, the urgency and smart. Words smart, uh, yeah. Just assume just pretend I said something smart and insightful. But yeah, I know the urgency and working with speakers. I think when I was first learning, I didn't work with speakers as much as I should have, which is might be kind of uh surprising considering I like moved home to the res and was like working with Graham. Like my point, the whole intent of coming home was to like, you know, work on language. But I kind of feel like I didn't know enough to know how much I didn't know, sort of deal. And I don't remember why I'm on this tangent, so you just keep going. Yeah, work for speakers, that's the point. Yeah. And yeah. So yeah, we can do our fancy word of the word of the day breakdown online later. Go visit Graham today. Yeah, in the future you can post on Facebook and get a bunch of likes and white guilt settlers. Holy geez, maybe we should edit edit that out. JK. Love you. Love you.
SPEAKER_04This is just kind of an aside because you're talking about your gram. I I don't know what happened to my early learning notes. Like, I wish I had kept them, they would be so valuable just to see the progress. But I remember like you used to have these flashcards and you would ask your gram how to say stuff, and I was like, hey, those are cool, and I was copying them. And you would have like a phrase on and that method actually I think worked really well. You would carry like 10 at a time and just always in your back pocket, and then we'd you know, be waiting and you'd be like quizzing or get those and then do another 10. But then when you look back at them, so that's why I wish I had them because there were some that were in there that now that I know more, I'm like, this is like she gave us a literal translation, or like you didn't maybe explain the context to her, and then she gave you a literal translation that didn't work for what we thought it meant. Yeah, you know, that can happen a lot, and because your Graham is not a linguist, like Yeah, no, and you weren't either at the time.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, I still have a lot of that stuff. I still have um some old recordings where I just sit down and say, Hey Graham, how do you say this? And looking back on it is so valuable because yeah, like sometimes she would miss like we weren't on the same page, she would have a different interpretation of what is what I was trying to say, but also there's a lot of like really, really good linguistic data in there just by that very fact. It's like, okay, she's actually saying something different, and she's using some very like pretty complex conjugation patterns here just to say something super simple that I that I thought was super simple. So yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04You should find them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I still got uh I still got them somewhere. I still have a notepad that I used when this was before I even like really meaningfully started my language learning. This is like I don't know what year it was a long time ago, but I was like, I was still I was already thinking about it. I was already like, man, I should work on learning language, you know. Graham's the last one, or at least the last one in my immediate family. So I I got a notebook, I sat down with her one time, and I asked her, like, how do you say this? So I'd like to write it down and try to write it down, and it was just like so beyond my comprehension that I kind of I didn't go much further with it.
SPEAKER_03You gave up.
SPEAKER_01Because I had no idea. I gave up. I gave up. That was just a fancy way of saying I gave up. But I still have that notebook somewhere. I'm gonna dig it out.
SPEAKER_04Um use kabonta for like break. Stop for a little bit. I didn't give up, I just stopped for a little bit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, me say good.
SPEAKER_04So what's our main thesis?
SPEAKER_01Um, we don't have one, but I do think it was good to talk through some of this stuff and like, you know, kind of realize this distinction between the learning space and the promotion space, and also the reasons why some of these like romanticizations might be popular. These are things I hadn't really considered previously, so I hopeful, hopefully the the listener got something out of it too.
SPEAKER_04I think that's the gist of it. I think you know, you don't have to agree with us or everything that we say, but it's food for thought. Like, I think it's helpful to be like, why do we do these things that you know, like what's what's the goal here? Like what are we what are we trying to achieve? I think it doesn't hurt to be reflective on on some of these things. So yeah, that's me can uh walk it, y'all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, me you can watch Mick.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so me quatch everyone for listening. You can send us listener emails to halanguagepodcast at gmail.com. We're gonna re-record the burnout episode. I'm talking about emotional burnout, not talking about Michaels. So if you have any experiences you want to share, me quatch to those that have already sent us in your emails. We will be reading them on the next show and discussing that. And uh, that's all I want to say. To send us a listening letter write to us at palanguagepodcast at gmail.com. Our theme song is by Beverly McKyver, and our podcast artwork is by Josh Payland Stanley.